Kathy (host):
Well hello there and welcome back to another episode of Help My Business is Growing, a podcast where we explore how to grow and build a business that is healthy and sustainable. I'm your host, Kathy Svetina, a fractional CFO and a founder of Newcastle Finance, a company where we believe that everything that you do in your business will eventually end up in your finances. And to get to healthy finances is to have a healthy business. How do you get there? Well, this is where this podcast comes into help. And today, we are going to be talking about HR investigations, because they are crucial that you know about them if you have a small business because they often fly under the radar. And it can get stressful when you have to deal with employee complaints, wrongful termination claims, bullying accusations, and more of this HR stuff that you might not have been dealing with before. And now you just have no idea how to respond. Because these investigations and accusations matter because they can make or break your business. When done right they'll protect you and your employees. But when you mishandle them, they can lead to legal issues, damage your reputation, and cost your business a lot of money. So how do you manage employee complaints and these accusations? And how do you conduct a fair investigation? More importantly, how does that really look like? And when should you seek legal counsel? Who should you call for help if you have no idea what to do? And what's the secret to resolving them fairly and professionally? As a quick reminder, all of the episodes on this podcast including this one come with timestamps for topics that we discussed, and each one has its own blog post as well. So I encourage you to go take a look at it and scan through so you can see what exactly we're talking about in this episode, you can find all the links and the detailed topics. On this episode's show notes. My guest today is going to be Jill Avey. She is the founder and owner of Southwestern HR Consulting, and Jill has more than 25 years of business expertise and human resources. Collectively, she and her team bring 200 plus years of HR experience to the care and support of their clients throughout the New Mexico and 24 states and in four countries, building extraordinary employers to create extraordinary work environments. Join us.
Kathy (host):
Jill, you're so welcome to come to this podcast. And thank you so much for being here, because we're going to be talking about something that is really important. And I don't see people talk about it a lot in the small business community. And that's HR investigations. And you are an expert in this.
Jill (guest):
Thank you, Kathy. Yeah, it's a privilege to get to talk to you about this particular topic. It is a scary topic, I think for employers to experience some type of a claim or a charge inside or outside of their business, and how they know what to do next. Where do you turn? How do you handle it? And it's a critical piece that, if done well can save employers a lot of money.
Kathy (host):
So let's talk about what is an HR investigation to begin with. And then we're going to talk about like, how does the process look like, but for someone who doesn't - who's not familiar with that, especially if they're in a small business space, you know, they've they've never really talked about it. This is something that it's pretty common in the big businesses, but what is actually an HR investigation? Okay.
Jill (guest):
So what prompts an HR investigation is an employee coming forward with a concern or complaint about a condition of their work that encompasses discrimination, and discrimination is a really large envelope, and so or an umbrella better said. And with that, with that being said, it can be something in discrimination, perhaps a wrongful hire, I didn't get picked for internal promotion, because of a protected class, or whatever their reasoning might be. Remember, it's a person's perception. So we're not dealing necessarily, in fact, but rather in perception. So that's where discrimination could fall but also what is discrimination is harassment - sexual harassment, bullying, hostile work environment, retaliation, retaliation is probably the single most common claim that's made. And that is an employee saying, "My employer has done this to me because of" and it might be because I made a claim, because I made a worker's comp claim, because I, whatever it is, they put in that sentence to finish it. And so when someone comes to the employer inside, that, that is really a gift for you to understand, wow, we want to get this right for you, thank you for coming forward. And then an investigation could pursue to understand what has transpired. And what might need to change to prevent that from happening? Is there corrective action that's necessary, based on what action was alleged? Or did that? Yeah, if an employee goes outside the organization, which they have a right to, oftentimes, they'll go out because they came in, and you did nothing about it. So they go out. However, they don't have to go through that step, they can go outside. And when I'm saying outside, that would be to state or federal agencies to say, "Hey, this is happening to me in my workplace," and then it's up to the employer to prove that it didn't. And the situation may be where they go to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission talked about as the EEOC. It could that's a federal agency. But within your state, it might be something raised at the Department of Workforce Solutions, or the Colorado Human Rights Bureau, one of those types of state agencies that have responsibility around discrimination.
Kathy (host):
And is that the same as the Department of Labor? Or is that the Department of Labor? It's like the umbrella of all of these, how does that work?
Jill (guest):
So the Department of Labor is another department. And it gives the governing Department of Employment. So things that fall under the Department of Labor would be the Fair Labor Standards Act, which governs how people are paid and classified - all that kind of thing. It could also incorporate practices of employers, but the EEOC is a separate agency. Okay. And the Department of Labor also has Wage and Hour in it, multiple, multiple departments that are involved in the employment process.
Kathy (host):
So you talked about, you know that the employee has options, they can either come to you as an employer, where they can go outside, but what happens if you ignore it? Let's say that someone is bringing forward a concern, and for some reason, you ignored it, not intentionally. But maybe you just don't have the expertise in-house? Or maybe it slipped? Or maybe you didn't deem it to be, you know, such a big deal or whatever it could be? What happens if you ignore it, and the employee takes it outside? Are there any penalties for you or any financial ramifications? How does that work?
Jill (guest):
A common answer in HR with a question-and-answer scenario is, it depends, okay. So I would not be able to put a fixed firm dollar of what it could cost an employer, but it will make it more difficult for the employer to position themselves in response to what the employee is saying. So in some cases, what the employee is saying, truly has happened. And, it may be that as an employer, you were aware of that and you've taken measures. So that's something that you would share in your response. But it may be that the employee has a perception of something that they feel has happened to them. And yet, all the all the facts aren't quite as they actually played out, right? Because sometimes we take things internally, and we adjust them to our narrative. And so it might not be 100% factual, and that doesn't mean intentionally, although it can't be. We train the employees to understand that making that claim against your organization or a supervisor that you're not happy with. That's that's not an activity to get back at someone. It's a very expensive, serious type of activity. And you want to be sure that you are being forthright and accurate in what you're sharing. So the organization can fix what's going on so it doesn't happen to someone else. But also to prevent a false claim that would not really hard to target who you're accusing, but it crushes your credibility to make a whole claim as well. And it could result in disciplinary action, depending on what the company has in place policy-wise.
Kathy (host):
And Jill, you also work with a lot of small businesses, what are some of the most common complaints that their employees bring forward to them? Is there like a common thread that you keep seeing?
Jill (guest):
There are a few common threads. One would be a claim that's made outside the organization based on a wrongful termination, that many times when someone when an employee is terminated, and, and claims a wrongful termination, what what's absent in that termination is documentation. The reason that they were fired, you know, some attorneys will say, if you're in an at-will state simply say that this is an at-will separation, you know, at any time the employer or the employee could hurt or break the employment relationship. In other employers will say to, or I'm sorry, other attorneys will say, to give the reason so there's something tangible for them to understand. Well, it kind of depends on the situation. But if there is a, you're fired, because someone showed up or showed up halfway through his shift, and that's the end of the documentation, the employer is not going to be situated well, to combat a charge of wrongful termination, because the employee pretty much gets to say what they want. Your hope is, of course, that it's factual, but it isn't always. So it's up to the employer to prove that's wrong without documentation that says, well, actually, in our termination letter, we identified the issue at hand, and the dates in which it occurred. And that was the reasoning for the employment we practice in our in our organization, they can provide that from their handbook. Or if they're not large enough to have a handbook, they may have just a few standing policies, that either with one employee, we wouldn't want an employer to be without any form of policy, because they need to be protected. And they also need to be clear to the employee, the expectations that are, are presented for their work situation. So I would say wrongful termination for someone who is who has left the organization, inside the organization, what we're seeing the most is number one of sexual harassment. And number two then I'm gonna say, a hostile work environment, slash bullying. Those two particular charges are not necessarily illegal unless they rise to the level of harassment. But they're not a work environment-friendly situation, either. So none should be tolerated, but it's understanding what's transpired. Sometimes the hostile work environment perception is because someone holds employees to their deadline. And that feels hostile, right? That's accountability. Or someone receives a poor evaluation. Again, that's accountability. Although in an evaluation, there should never be surprises. Because you've been talking about all the great things and the challenges along the way. The other piece would be that, you know, sometimes people management styles are not necessarily translated. It's not illegal to be a jerk. But again, it's the work culture that you're trying to cultivate. So perhaps a manager that is a bit rough on the edges, kind of minus the please and thank you, or the appreciation, or what jobs, they were assigning those kinds of things. Maybe the manager could utilize some training. And that might be an outcome of an investigation. But it's a it's a slippery slope. So we train employees to be sure they understand what those words mean. Because when it happens in the workplace, it's super important that it gets taken care of, and when it's claimed over and over and over again, and it's really more accountability. Or perhaps you don't have to be besties, right? But you have to be respectful. And so you don't necessarily want to have dinner with your manager, but at the same time, you have to be respectful and vice versa. So it's really fine tuning what that means. And then the sexual harassment is, you know, sometimes it's just the, the pervasive asking, asking out over and over and over again. Or it might be something that crosses the line even further. And it could cross the line into criminal law, as well, if it were a really egregious situation.
Kathy (host):
So you mentioned and you mentioned, the employee handbook and policy, especially in terms of, I would assume that that's where you really put in what is your, that you're an at-will employer that you can essentially terminate the employment at any time for any reason. And then also the sexual harassment training, I think that would probably be in there as well. And if you are a small business that is just starting to, you know, start to have your own full-time, part time employees, you're between like five and a couple of 10s of them? When is it that you should start focusing on putting this handbook together to you know, avoid all these types of situations as much as possible? Would you say that the time is when you have your first employee? Is that when you start putting the handbook together? What is your general recommendation on that?
Jill (guest):
That's a great question. And, it depends if you're in than what some of your state requirements are because we have our federal requirements, but then every state gets in the chili that because they want to ensure that certain things are being handled a certain way. So if you're starting up in the state of California, I would start immediately, I would say that's true. Also, in Colorado, Illinois, Ohio, maybe a few others, what I would say is, all the federal laws don't apply to every single employer, it depends on the number of employees that you have, then what's interesting about discrimination and harassment is that it is not a requirement to have a policy and practices and procedures and tell you about 15 employees. Now, with that being said, we've worked with a lot of employers that have less than 15, that even have less than 10, or five. And what legal counsel has shared with us is you don't want to be an employer that shows up to court in a harassment claim, you know, pick it to harassment, sexual harassment, retaliation, without a policy, without practices. Without training. Some states require training California for one, but some states don't New Mexico doesn't require you to do anti harassment, anti discrimination training, or what the EEOC really likes, civility and respect in the workplace. It's not a requirement, you don't want to be caught without it. And so having a policy that follows the EEOC guidelines, and seeing what needs to be included, and then what your processes are, then a handbook often doesn't contain processes or procedures, if the handbook doesn't have to explain all the steps of an investigation, but that investigation would be conducted in the event that there was something brought forward that necessitated that now sometimes, it's simply just looking into a situation, right? It's not doing a full blown investigation, where you have interviewed questions and a list of people and, and all of that, and that kind of thing can happen internally if you have the staff to do it. If there's also a lot of power for the organization, to outsource that investigation, so no one has skin in the game. Right? It's a objective type of investigation rather than subjective. Because if you do it internally and the employees feel like there was favoritism, or that they've investigated or was not completely objective, then that might cause them to move outside and make the claim again, and they can
Kathy (host):
So we talked about having employees in the business but what if you're a business that significantly relies on contractors and 1099ers? Is this something you still need to be aware of and have your policies and HR procedures and handbook together, even though you don't really have full time part time employees, but you have the contractors. Is that still important to do that as well, back to that
Jill (guest):
Fantastic question, then no. So when you have independent contractors as of fed and no employees, you don't want to engage in employment activity. So the Department of Labor governs this particular piece. And they want to ensure that your 1099 is a justified 1099 or independent contractor that that justification has, there's a 20 point tap. And you don't have to hit all 20 points. But some of the points that you need to make sure you hit is that you do not control that contractor, you have a contract, not an offer letter, you have a scope of work, not a job description. Independent contractors do not sign a handbook acknowledgement statements. Now, you may have in your contract, that there is an expectation that there was an alignment with your vision, issue values, whatever that might be. And that they would operate under the EEO policy of the organization where it's non discriminatory, not anti harassment type situation, that can be in their agreement, but they are not going to find your policy, because that is an employment activity. So you want to make sure you do a very good job at keeping things straight. And so we do have an independent contractor in your email communication, you're not assigning them, we have a new client that is your assignment. Rather, we have a new client looking for this is do you have capacity or interest in supporting? See the difference that control lies then with the independent contractor? And and you want to be super consistent everywhere you can in keeping things separate? Yep. But what happens? For example,
Kathy (host):
If you have a 1099 contractor, and they feel like they're being harassed, for example, let's say for their they're being sexually harassed? How does that work? Are they still able to bring in the investigation forward? Do they go to instead of to you do they then go to the external party, to those labor departments that we talked about? How does that work? Okay.
Jill (guest):
Another great question. So the behavior is not acceptable for anyone by anyone, right? Even if it's your clients, that are harassing, or sexually harassing, or bullying your employees or your 1099s. How you handle it, though, is different employment has a process for the 1099s, the hope would be that they would come forward to you. So that is something that you could address in an effort to not only protect them, but also to assist with the individual who's engaging in the poor behavior. If indeed, that isn't that happening, but it is not an employment situation. So the actions that an employer can take with an employee is much different than what could be taken with the independent contractor
Kathy (host):
And how like, what are some of the actions that you can take with an employee, but you can't take them with an independent contractor? What are those differences?
Jill (guest):
What are the differences that we said, Okay, so for an employee, the employee that we use the word target, the employee who has allegedly engaged in the behavior that being claimed, if that is found to be true, then the depending on the level of the behavior, the egregious pneus of the behavior of that player can do a number of things. Likely their policy would say, when we hope that they'd have one, because then that that dictates and governs their behavior. So it's not something personal, right? It's not because this person is over 40 Or because this person has any form of protected class rather, it's because the policy sets we do that. That's the That's the intention of the policy. And so, the policy will would likely say something that when findings are made and the determination of a claim the, the organization may take disciplinary action up to and including termination. Right? It doesn't, it doesn't mean they have to terminate them that they say we have a zero tolerance, if any thing happened in the in the most significant or insignificant kind of capacity, it is termination. That is another approach. In which case, if somebody is found to have committed any form of discrimination, or harassment and retaliation, then they're automatically fired. In the, in the first example, they might be put through training, they might receive a write up, it could be a write up, it could be a first and final write up. If this ever happens. Again, you're terminated no questions that it just depends on what it was that was happening. For instance, let's say somebody has a some kind of explicit sexual screensaver, right? That sexual harassment for anyone that sees it that's uncomfortable. So would that rise to the level of termination, it would in a zero tolerance arena. And I'm not saying one is better than the other, it just depends on your culture. And what you want to bring forward. Getting the first example where it gets, the policy might say, will result in disciplinary or may result in disciplinary action up to an including termination, then that person may go through some sexual harassment training, they may go through some sensitivity training, maybe receive a rider? And it was an understanding that you're it's, it's not okay. Right. So this can't happen again, in any nature. And it doesn't have to be exactly the same. It doesn't have to be within the third category of discrimination is if there is another claim.
Kathy (guest):
And for the contractor, you really can, what I'm hearing is you have options, more options for the employee, before the contractor, it's really about, it probably ends up, I would assume, and, you know, you tell me if that's true, it probably ends up in the termination of the contract with that particular contractor. If they are no, I
Jill (guest):
would suggest that if the contractor is the target, so they're the person conducting the behavior, that that's a very strong probability that it could result in their termination. And there's, there's no, what do I want to say there's no requirements and how you do that, you can sever that agreement at any time, the contract like that, for both parties, that, you know, it's not a right, not an at will agreement, because it's not employment. But the agreement can be severed at any time, there's some kind of statement in in the contract, I would suspect. Now, if the contractor is the victim, then it's up to the contractor, the contractor may terminate the situation, based on how the employer handled it. You know, if the employer handled the situation to their satisfaction, then the relationship may continue. But it's really important for employees to understand that when you bring something forward that does ultimately result in an investigation, the employee will likely not know, the details of the investigation, a report is is usually generated. And it may be a paragraph, because the supervisor like the looked into the situation, talk to the parties, there was a resolution and they'll create a summary. That that's how simple the investigation could be for the right scenario. However, if it's more involved, and it's a formal investigation, whether it's done by HR internal or an outsource investigator, the only people that are going to get that report should be the employer. And when I say the employer, I mean the top dog. So it could be the owner, the president, the CEO, whoever that is, or perhaps HR, depending on how things were were handled, but it's not something that shared with the claimant or the chart, the target party. It's just shared that we appreciate what you've brought forward. We did an investigation and we are taking measures to ensure that we have a safe working environments. And then they may see some things right? The organization goes through training, or they see that the person is no longer working there. Because it resulted in their termination, that we're generally the employer won't talk about another employees work situation or corrective action.
Kathy (guest):
So let's talk about the process of this investigation. We we've talked about, you know, what are some of the consequences we talked about? Why would someone bring that forward to have the investigation? But let's say, I always like to be very specific with, you know, with this podcast, let's say that implore you had an employee that has accused you of wrongfully terminating them, and they bring this forward to you. Now, what, what do you do now? What is the process?
Jill (guest):
Okay, likely they're going to make that claim to an outside agency, an outside agency is going to, in some cases, mail you a hard copy. In some cases, in some states, it would be an email, and it identifies what this person has charged. And then in that document, it will also let you know that what's required, whether it would be a position statement, which is really a report, identifying what the process was, and anything that the employee claimed, sometimes the employees are super general, in their claims. So it makes it hard to dive into detail. There's some assumption that's made, but that's all written in the position statement. And then that position statement also will cite a number of, we call them tabs, they're pieces of evidence, right? Maybe their, their offer letter would be one that shows that they were in employment, their job description might be one of the documents, it depends on what the wrongful termination statement is, or if it's just if it's wrongfully terminated, period. You know, that could be the claim the employee gets to decide. And so then the termination letter would would be a document, perhaps there's corrective action that has been happening that identified that there was either a behavior or a performance issue, because those are two different things. So like if somebody's having a hard time, getting to work on time stayed for the whole shift, kind of thing, no call no show. That's a behavior when someone's having a hard time hitting their deadlines, or following the protocols within the project. That's a performance issue. And so what kind of documentation is there? What conversations that happened? Was there retraining provided anything like that, and then also any policies within the handbook that were followed? For instance, if you have a handbook, and you have the EEO statement, that statement, saying that you make all employment decisions, from hiring everything that happens in the employment cycle to termination, in a fair and just way, without consideration of any protected class? Right, you're inclusive and supportive. And so all those things would be evidence that would be used to provide to the agency, whether it's federal or state, that is handling the case. And then they review and make your determination. In some state, when there is no finding no determination, then the employee is given a right to sue letter. So it's not necessarily over. And so it depends on the strength of the position statement, and an attorney's review that the employee goes to generally they're going to have legal representation to, to sue, whether they're, they feel like there was a need to, you know, go overboard.
Kathy (host):
Yeah. And I would assume, because I've seen that also on the corporate side, that doing the investigation, and if it ends up being a real dispute where the employer turned out that they did something wrong, it's probably a lot cheaper to go through mediation versus the actual lawsuit. Correct?
Jill (guest):
Yes. When you're in that situation, as the employer, you know, your supervisor or you made a mistake, you did the wrong thing. Then mediation is always the first step in that offering, which you'd like to mediate, and then sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes it's not necessarily monetary in the settlement. But often it is. And so the deal is, it's really expensive to end up with a case where you have to do a position statement and prove everything you can that you didn't do something wrong, or that you have found there was this one piece that we did, we corrected it. And because employers are allowed to be human, but she then ended up in court and litigation that lose, right? I mean, it's expensive, even entering mediation can be expensive. Because you're, you feel like it's a loss. But to win, to write that position statement to have that written for you and get the no finding. That's still expensive to, because you've paid for the expertise to get that done. Now, it's less expensive. But it's not free. That is, so the very best way is to have have a few policies in place. Have communication, strong communication, ongoing communication, with your employees create an environment where they feel safe coming to you that when you don't know what to do, the first thing you say is, I can see this is important, and we want to get this right for you. That is an H our employment mantra, we want to get this right for you. Let me look into this. You've got two things, you've given some value to the employee, and you've given yourself some time to figure out what the heck to you. We've never had this, I don't even know what this mean, right? And then get back to them that need to get this right for you. I want to check on a few things that reconvene after lunch, tomorrow morning, whatever it is, and then be sure you do, even if it's to say, I have found some information, I need a bit more. So thank you for coming back together, I need to ask if we can meet up for lunch today. Right? Communicate, keep the lines open? Because in the absence of your communication, it's MSU. And that's making stuff up.
Kathy (host):
True. Yeah. So you know, I always like to make sure that we are this main is very specific with small businesses and you know, small businesses, the chances are, you don't have an HR person on staff that can go and fix this for you. And thank you for giving us that warning. Because, you know, I I'm kind of used to that from the corporate environment, the HR, it's the speak, so to speak. And some people, some business owners might not have heard that. So this is very, very helpful, especially if you don't have an HR person on staff. But what happens if you know, your employee comes to you, you give them this, thank you for bringing this to me, I, I'm going to look into it. I want to make this right for you. What do you do then? Do you go and you hire an HR consultant, a fractional HR person, what is your next step, especially when you don't have the background in HR, or the knowledge and the expertise to figure out what do I do with this now, like what to do with this?
Jill (guest):
So get help is absolutely right, what you're saying? And, you know, generally it's free to find an HR consultant that can talk to you just at the highest level A I've got this situation going on, I don't have an HR person, what what would we want to do? And what would that look like? How, how would we get help with that. And if you've, if you've contracted an HR person that doesn't do investigation, they'd like to know who could do that. So an HR consultant can do your investigation, you want to make sure they're certified. So that you know they know what they're doing. You'd like to know if they've ever done an investigation. And if that HR person starts talking about an attorney, that person is in the know, right? We want to be sure that that organization is completely covered. So if someone were to call us we would be able to say, our experience and all of that. And we would say we often will work alongside an attorney through the investigative process it and of course this conversation with us is free as it would be with any other HR consultant I'm relatively certain we're not giving advisement, but just giving props Elsa. And we would recommend we have someone if you don't already have an employment law attorney. Right? You went to employment law attorney or the labor attorney, and having a conversation with them. The first time is generally also free to understand, you know, this is it, this falls in a realm where you're likely good to work with your HR consultant. Whereas here is something more unfold for you which here, this is a good thing to have in the background. So you're not paying the attorney fee for everything that's being done, but only when the attorneys expertise is needed. And so that's what you would be looking for. Small companies don't need to have an HR person, they need to have an HR resource. So that they're kept abreast of all the new stuff that's coming through. And they can reach out and say, Hey, someone just that they've been experiencing harassment.
Kathy (host):
Why do we do screen information, Jill? So if someone is listening to this, they own a business? Oh, my goodness. I don't know what to make of this. It's making me really nervous. What What should I do? Right now something that I can do to guard my business against someone bringing forth an accusation that they were wrongfully terminated? Or maybe there's a hostile environment, what can we what could they have, so that if something like this happens in the future, that they feel more prepared, and they know, you know, what, what the next steps are, what you need to do.
Jill (guest):
So a couple of things, one, they can get themselves educated, there's a lot of programs online, where they can learn what to do next, how to support a culture shift. Right, they already know, they haven't really given attention to their culture. And culture will always develop. It's just a matter of whether it's done intentionally or not happening, whether it's by you or not, yeah. And culture is developed by the people you hire. So that's where it starts, no matter what your vision mission and values, say, if you're not hiring people that are aligned with your vision, mission and values, then your culture is not going to likely grab and embrace those vision that mission, vision and value. So it starts at the hiring piece. But there, there's a ton of things out there are podcasts, such as yours, which is of course best to help individuals become more knowledgeable. If I were in a position as an employer, and I needed accounting, I wouldn't attend those seminars where I can learn accounting, I would reach out to an expert, that's the fastest way to help you reach out to an HR expert. And they are a we, I should say are abundant. There are many in every state, there are many that work in multiple states, get professional help, so that you do it, right. Because Google, we described as a very expensive tool, because it left you can put your question in to say, here's my scenario, what do we do when on an idea of an event, that's when the sun is shining? Because you need all those little caveats, right? And so then all we have a I now we can put all that in the ER. Right? Yeah. And what I will say is, you might get some good information we have played with it, you can get good information. But sprinkled within is inaccurate information. And it takes up an expert to understand that, oh, if it's not a big deal, you don't have to do anything. Okay, we would say Oh, absolutely not. No, you never ignore. It's always handled. Sometimes it's just a mere conversation, sometimes of lifting and giving the employee a voice and sharing the appreciation that they brought this forward. So now you can keep a pulse on a situation right. And so, I would say good help from an expert. Consulting is present, to make employers lives easier, so that you can focus It's on your business. Have your bottom line how you make money that you can bring in your it and your, like child team, your HR, your, you know, whatever else, there might be in the term in the way of me for the organization. Don't try to learn it all.
Kathy (host):
Yeah. And there's, you know, these are complex topics and you it requires, there's context and nuances in every single one of these things. Yeah. So, thank you for that. Jill, where can our listeners find you?
Jill (guest):
Whoa, thank you for that. Our company name is Southwestern HR consulting. We can be found at our website, that is F W. H O rc.com. All right,
Kathy (host):
Perfect. And all of these are actually going to be in the show notes too. And you can find Jill's website there and her contact information. Thank you so much for this very insightful conversation. Jill. Oh,
Jill (guest):
Thank you, Kathy. It's been a privilege.