Kathy (host):
Well hello there and welcome back to another episode of Help! My Business is Growing Podcast, where we explore how to grow and build a business that is healthy and sustainable.
Kathy (host):
I'm your host, Kathy Svetina, a fractional CFO, and the founder of NewCastle Finance, a company where we believe that everything you do in your business will eventually end up in your finances. To get healthy finances is to have a healthy business. Of course, the question is always, how do I get there? Well, this is where this podcast comes in to help.
Kathy (host):
Today, we're going to talk about sales and sales recruiting because sales are the lifeblood of any business. It's the engine that drives revenue and fuels your growth. Achieving sales success can be challenging for smaller companies that are rapidly expanding. There are a lot of moving parts, and it can be hard to reel them in. Your sales process might be so complicated that your team isn't sure they can sell effectively, or maybe they aren't selling effectively because things are constantly changing.
Kathy (host):
You might not have organized sales data, making it tough to track performance and predict future sales accurately, which impacts the way you look at your financials and how you forecast. You might even see leads slipping through the cracks because salespeople are not tracking information, or salespeople refusing to track leads. I've seen that happen too, and trust me, it's not pretty.
Kathy (host):
So the question is, how do you build an effective sales process that fits your goals? Where do you find the right salespeople for your growing company, which is dynamically changing all the time? How do you ensure that your sales department becomes a well-oiled machine so your business stays financially healthy and sustainable in the long run?
Kathy (host):
As a quick reminder, all the episodes on this podcast, including this one, come with timestamps for the topics we discuss, and each one has its own blog post too. The blog post has a transcript as well, so if you don't feel like listening, you can just read it. You can find all the links in the episode show notes.
Kathy (host):
Now, my guest today is Dan Fantasia, who has worked in the field of sales recruiting since 1997 and founded TreeLine in 2001. His exclusive focus on helping companies build world-class elite sales teams has changed the lives of over 3,300 sales professionals. Dan has built a deep knowledge of what it takes to build and grow a top-producing business. As a proven sales leader and innovator, Dan Fantasia has created a positively charged culture that promotes the good in every person, resulting in a team that has developed best practice methodologies and technology that continues to revolutionize the industry. Join us.
Kathy (host):
And welcome to Help! My Business is Growing Podcast.
Dan (guest):
Thanks for having me, Kathy.
Kathy (host):
Thanks for being here because we're going to talk about something really important. Finding the right sales talent seems to be a major hurdle that I keep seeing, and it keeps popping up for all the growing businesses that I work with. Salespeople are crucial when it comes to driving revenue. But the wrong hire doesn't just cost you the revenue that you're not achieving, but also all the time and the money in terms of the recruitments. For smaller businesses, these three can significantly impact the company. So, Dan, you've been doing this for quite a while, over 25 years. Tell us, why is finding the right salesperson so hard? What are we doing wrong?
Dan (guest):
That's a good question. Well, for small growing companies, many times, they are under the impression that there is a silver bullet to hiring the right salesperson, and then that salesperson will be incredibly successful. That will take the company to the next level. Yep, hire a great person. Let them go. They're done. Unfortunately, Kathy, none of that's accurate. Meaning, the first thing small companies usually need to identify is their own current internal sales process and model. And many times for high growth organizations, their CEO tends to be the number one salesperson, or they have a founder-led sales approach. The challenge of that model is not that they can't find success, but it's nearly impossible to scale.
Dan (guest):
The reason why it's nearly impossible to scale is that every CEO will sell differently than their first, second, third, fourth sales representative. Founders have a network, a board, relationships, and they sell through referrals and relationships, relying on their knowledge and expertise. When a small company is trying to grow sales, they often say, "You know how to sell, you're the salesperson with a great track record, be successful and sell things." However, the new salesperson doesn't have the same credibility, network, or relationships. They're not moving as fast as the CEO, and they're not finding the same success. The model isn't set up for the salesperson to succeed.
Dan (guest):
The first stage is for a company to define its sales model. This may require hiring the first sales representative not as the expert who will double sales, but as the person who will understand and build the sales process. They need to learn how to find and close cold leads, the length of the sales cycle, the stages of the process, and the revenue generated. Once they understand the metrics for closing one deal, they can scale that process. Once they have a scalable process, they can hire their second, third, and fourth sales representatives to achieve the desired revenue numbers.
Kathy (host):
That's really interesting. So it's almost you don't really need a salesperson, you need some type of a hybrid from someone who can do the operational model of sales, put that into process. And so it becomes a blueprint of how you're selling in the company. But how do you find a person like that? I mean, is there like a specific name for a person like this? How do you go to market and find someone like that?
Dan (guest):
It's still a salesperson. So the first thing I would do is look for individuals who are comfortable in smaller environments where they need to roll up their sleeves, prospect, and find new business. That's number one. The second thing is I would hire someone who has already built processes in the past. So when they walk in the door, they understand what a sales process looks like. So they can bring it to your organization. The third thing I would say is make sure, as an executive or manager, that you give this person time to build and learn the metrics of success. If you don't give them enough time, you will be setting them up for failure. And if all you look at is results, meaning revenue results, it is likely they will fail because the results that you really want to track are what is happening in the pipeline, what are the metrics to be successful in closing one deal. But there are sales representatives out there that have this skill set. And those individuals are the ones you want to consider for your company. So they can help you build the process. So they can help you grow and scale a model that really works.
Kathy (host):
Yeah. And in terms of the process, can we unpack this a little bit more? How does I know it sales process for every single company's going to be different? But are there specific steps in the sales process that you want to dissect that and have the operational procedure around that? How do you put that together? What would a good sales process look like? For someone to develop? How does that even look like?
Dan (guest):
Yeah, so it's different for every company, but there's a blueprint that you can follow. The first thing you want to do is as you're looking to hire this individual, have them as part of the interview process, have them create a 30, 60, or 90-day business plan. Because based on their experience, there is likely a model they have in place. And so you want to understand what that 30, 60, 90-day business plan is, so that you can hold them accountable. Right? If they're saying they need to make 50 outbound emails, 50 phone calls, and 50 LinkedIn connects every single day. Wonderful. At the end of the week, right? There should be 250 of each one of those metrics tracked and successfully completed. And so as a CEO or a VP of sales, you want to be able to track those metrics based on the 30, 60, 90-day plan they've given you, and this way you can hold them accountable. Now you have data to refer back to over the first 30 days, 60 days, 90 days to see what's been effective, what's successful, and what's not. So the first thing I would say is, in the interview process, have a person based on your model give you a 30, 60, 90-day plan, review that with them, make sure you are in agreement based on your industry and the way that you're used to selling that it is logical and it makes sense. And then both of you will agree that this is the roadmap over the next 30, 60, 90 days of activity metrics or key performance indicators for this person to be successful. And then every week, every month check-in, have these initiatives been accomplished? And we met our activity metrics, and what is that produced for us? Once you figure that out, right, Kathy? Then you can say, Okay, this activity has driven five potential leads, or this activity has driven no potential leads. So the next question is, is it enough activity? Is the messaging wrong, right? So these are the things that you want to dissect and figure out if there's not enough activity that's double the activity and see what happens. Or the activity is fine, we're talking to people, but they're rejecting us. Okay, what is our messaging look like? So there's a bunch of different things. But I would start with a 30, 60, 90-day plan that is created by the rep that's going to be joining the company.
Kathy (host):
And right now, we're talking a lot about the B2B type of salespeople. But if you're in B2B, what do you think about hiring someone who has experience in B2C? How does that relate? And would it be a good idea, if you're someone who's putting this plan together? And would it be a good idea to hire someone from B2C that can essentially cross-pollinate ideas from the B2C world to the B2B? Or does that completely, like, is it a completely different animal from B2B type of selling? What's your take on that?
Dan (guest):
Totally different animal.
Kathy (host):
Totally different?
Dan (guest):
I would, you know, coming from B2C, it's more transactional. So if you have a transactional sales environment, it might work. If you have a really aggressive, talented, B2C salesperson that is looking for that transition, and you have a transactional sales environment, then yes, it could potentially work. But it doesn't typically work. B2C, there are a few industries that are B2C that have really good outbound sales representatives that can bring in new business, but a lot of B2C is it's a lot of inbound, it's just a different mentality.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, that's good to know. Because a lot of small businesses, what I see them get caught up in when they're hiring people is that they really like them. They like the personality, but they don't have that experience. The problem with that is you need to develop that person. And if you're a big company, and you have resources, and you have time, you can do that. But in a smaller business, especially in a growing business, you really need someone who can hit the ground running. And if the experience that they have doesn't match what you need, you will struggle.
Dan (guest):
Yeah, and you know, a lot of B2C people just don't, most of them just don't have access to the technology, or they're not using the newest technology to be successful. So if you are a B2B company, and you hire one of these individuals that I'm talking about, that have the experience and can build out the playbook for you, they will also be encouraging you to use different technology, a CRM system, they will likely use some kind of sales automation system like Outreach or Apollo or Lead IQ. I mean, there's all kinds of things they're going to recommend using to make them become more successful in the role, things that likely the CEO and the founder, they didn't have to use. And so the talent that I'm talking about, when we help our clients grow, we're bringing them these individuals that can help them build a real sales process to help them grow revenue. If a company were to come to us and say, and many times they do, "I just need an awesome salesperson to sell." That's great. But we need to really spend some time consulting with that client to understand what that model looks like, to help them find a person that can actually grow their business instead of just sticking someone that seems like a great sales rep in place, but there's nothing to support them. They seem great, but they don't add a lot of value to the company and then it just becomes a fail.
Kathy (host):
And my question here is, we've been talking about skill set right now. One thing that I think you are talking about is also a cultural fit. What is the balance between having the right skill set and having the right cultural fit in the company? What do you see out there?
Dan (guest):
It's equally important. When we hire a tree line, and for most of the clients that really do a good job at hiring, they incorporate their core values into the interview process, right? They understand, they share with the job seeker, the candidate, what the company core values are. And then we question people around their core values, and what values they live, because when they join our organization, we want them to live those core values every day. When the entire company believes in our core values, it is just a healthy, dynamic, positive environment where everyone's rowing in the same direction. We're all working incredibly hard. So the hard skills and the personality traits that best fit your environment, they're equally important.
Kathy (host):
Yeah. So let's say that you have found someone who has great skill sets, they are exactly what you need, and they are a great cultural fit. How do you actually onboard a salesperson, especially if you don't have those sales processes just yet and you're still trying to find your way out there? How would you onboard a person like this? We talked about the 3060 90 plans. But what are some of the things you need to have before they come on, and what are some of the things you should be working with them starting from day one.
Dan (guest):
If it's the second or third person, that's a little bit different. If it's the first person you're hiring, of course, messaging is going to be critical. But understanding your core customer is so important, Kathy. When an individual joins the organization, whether it's technology or product, the first thing most companies do is they overload people with information about their technology and how awesome it is. But that comes with time. The most important thing for a salesperson is to understand what they are trying to do, right? What is the goal of their role? If the goal is to find net new prospects and close them, then the question is, do they need to be an engineer? Do they need to learn your technology as well as an engineer does to be successful? Yeah, most likely not. I shouldn't say most likely. But the critical success factor is going to be onboarding these people. They need to understand the company and the messaging, and of course, the technology, but they need to understand the core customer, right? Who are we selling to? What are their needs? Where are the pain points, right? Salespeople, if you're going to onboard a salesperson, they need to understand why someone would use this, not how it's broken down, but why someone needs this. They need to wrap their hands around understanding what the value proposition is when they're selling to that core customer. That's a core customer in the title, industry, geography, all of that information. That is where you should spend the majority of your time with your new hires. Then it's around, okay, what is the messaging that we need to deliver to this particular audience? Basically, what does that look like? And then, once that starts to come together, then it's about activity. What tasks do you need to do on a daily basis to be successful in this role? These are the things that you want to be thinking about when it comes to onboarding a person.
Kathy (host):
How often do you actually see companies do that? Because I know that a lot of companies, especially technology companies, really struggle with this messaging and positioning, especially as they are either new and they're still trying to find their legs, or when they're growing and the organization is so big that the messaging just kind of gets diluted, and everyone's doing their own thing. How well do you see companies do that?
Dan (guest):
Not well. I mean, the first onboarding, you know, a lot of times they bring people in, they say, "All right, I'm just using technology as an example." But they come in, learn technology, I bet naked, sit with the engineer, SC for a week, and just learn technology. At the end of every day or the end of the week, ask them how much they remember, what did they learn, and how will it help? So I'm not saying that you shouldn't be teaching your sales team what the product does, but they're a salesperson. Their goal is to find new clients. And that's a hard thing for companies to think about. Many times, they want to tell the sales team only about the product and how it's broken down and the details of it. But the salesperson isn't built like that. They want to know who am I selling to? How am I getting their attention? That is their skill. Their skill is to find the talent. And of course, they need to understand the technology; they need to understand the value proposition. You know, they'll have no credibility. So it's not that you just do sales. But most of the time, companies only do the technology piece, but they don't train on the actual, like, the sales. You know, like what's most important to these sales professionals, so we find that to be a downfall with a lot of onboarding in companies these days.
Kathy (host):
Do you think it's just because the owners or the founders don't understand the importance of that for the salesperson, or is it because it's just not there?
Dan (guest):
I think the founders are so emotionally attached. They care most about the technology, you know, almost like a great chef that owns their own restaurant. They care mostly about how awesome the food is, but they don't care as much about getting people into the restaurant and moving them through the restaurant. You need patrons to pay the bills. As good as the food is, someone still needs to focus on getting people in the door. So when it comes to hiring a sales team, you want to teach them the technology. But you also want to make sure they understand, to the simplest degree, what their role is. If you would tell a person that's never played hockey in their entire life, or just use hockey as an example,
Kathy (host):
Which would be me because I've never done that. Okay, good.
Dan (guest):
So, hockey is a good example. What is the, you never played it? Let's say you've never seen it. And you explain the game. What is the number one thing that if you were to explain it to a person, what's the number one thing you should do in hockey? What is the idea of it?
Kathy (host):
I guess you want to get a score, you want to put it in the goal, you see, that's the number one thing, putting the puck in the net? That's it. Yeah. Here's a stick. Here's the, I see that little thing, you've got to hit that until it goes in, that's it. It's that easy. Same with sales. Yeah. What are you trying to, you don't need to be an engineer. I need you to bring in clients. What are the activities to get clients? What do I need to train you and teach you to bring in net new clients? Right? That's what I need you to do. That's what you need to do. That's what the focus is. And many times, they want sometimes companies want people to train their salespeople to be engineers. They need people to drive activity and new revenue, new clients, new clients.
Kathy (host):
Yeah. You know, another thing you said is that they expect them to be engineers. Have you seen engineers actually turn into salespeople, and they have done that successfully?
Dan (guest):
Yeah, I mean, a lot of times the path is more realistic to become a sales engineer. But depending on the industry, I've highly technical industries actually require engineers to be their salespeople, so it's not, there are different personality types and different skill sets. So all of the roles that we recruit for require just a different skill set. And yes, engineers can be very effective and very successful salespeople. It all depends on the company, the audience they're selling to, and what their needs are.
Kathy (host):
You know, it's interesting because from a financial perspective, when I'm looking at new software, specifically for financial tasks that I need to perform, one of the things that always excites me is if the salesperson I'm talking to has been in my seat before and is actually a finance person. Because they will understand the way I think, they will understand the things I'm asking, especially if it's very technical. It's a very different type of conversation than I would have with someone who is a salesperson and has been trained in the type of software or whatever they have, versus a finance person who is trying to sell that type of software. It's a very different experience on the customer side.
Dan (guest):
Yeah, it's true. That's why companies use us. First, we have to understand their model and who they're selling to. We have to understand their requirements. But it's not uncommon for us to hire a really talented individual who has that type of expertise. Our clients seek us out because they just can't find them on their own. It's very hard to find that skill set if you don't have a large group of people reaching out and searching for those individuals.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, and I would think that it's almost like a needle in a haystack because someone who's an engineer or someone who's a finance person might not necessarily have the right skills to be a salesperson because they're completely different. So it's almost like when you find someone who's both, it's like a unicorn, right?
Dan (guest):
Well, we do that for almost all our clients. They have needs, and we meet their needs. We've been doing this for 22 years, so we're really good at it. We will find that person for you if we don't already have that person in our network or a bunch of people like that in our network. The question is, are they looking? Are they interested? Is it the right compensation structure, the right location? There are a lot of variables. But yeah, I mean, that's why companies use us to find that specific individual. They just don't have access to that talent on their own.
Kathy (host):
So if you are trying to find a needle in a haystack or a unicorn, that is the person to talk to. So we talked about the first, what is basically almost like the first 30 days of your salesperson's onboarding, making sure that you have the messaging right, that they understand what you're trying to do. But let's say the first 30 days have passed, and now the person understands the company better. What are the next 30 days in that 60-day timeframe that they should be focusing on? What are some of the things that you should start to hold them accountable for in that next 30 days?
Dan (guest):
You should still be holding them accountable to the same metrics that you've discussed. But because it's so new, it is not uncommon for the metrics to be off, right? Either more activity or maybe it could be less activity. But most, you know, it's more around what emails have worked, what A/B testing are we doing, what messaging is working, how are we getting our leads. So it's looking at all of the data that you've collected over the past 30 days. And by the way, 30 days is not enough time, but it's a good start. And you're tweaking things as you go. But they should be held accountable to the same KPIs and maybe tweaking it a little bit. And it's more around the first quarter, as long as they're doing their job and as long as they're driving traffic and tweaking things as they go, and the entire team is working together to brainstorm on messaging and seeing what has been successful and what's working and what's not. As you continue to learn after the first quarter, you really have a better understanding of what the model looks like and how it's working. If the activity metrics are not being met, then you have a different problem, Kathy. You can teach a person about the company, you can teach them about their core customer, you can work on messaging, you can work with marketing, you can do all of those things. But if the person is not meeting the activity metrics required to be successful, it's a different conversation. You can't do the job for the person; they have to be able to do it. And if you're already having those kinds of doubts in day 30, you likely hired the wrong person.
Kathy (host):
And you know, this is especially harder when you have really long sales cycles. And if your sales cycle is sometimes it can be even more than a year, those activities that they're doing are basically I mean, revenue becomes a lagging metric at this point. But to get to the revenue, you need to be doing these activities. So if the people are not doing the activities that you need them to do to get there, then that's a problem. So is there anything else that you can be looking at instead of the day-to-day activities? Are they reaching out to people? Are they following up and all that stuff that they can be doing, especially if you have a long sales cycle? Like, what are some of the things that you should be looking at if you have that long sales cycle?
Dan (guest):
Yeah. That's a really good question because what we've talked about so far is just the early stage of getting someone up to speed and moving in. We're also talking about small companies that are trying to figure this out. As the person starts building momentum, and again, usually that first quarter is important. But as they start building momentum, now it's about your ability to understand the pipeline and manage the forecast. Especially for a long sales cycle or complex sale, you as a sales manager or VP, CEO should have the ability to look at a forecast on a weekly basis and understand what's happening. So it is critical to understand the details of that forecast and to hold a person accountable. Because once that sales organization starts moving, you won't be caring about the activity metrics anymore. We're past the 90 days, now we're caring about opportunities. And so once you start to build momentum as a sales organization, you see it working in the activity metrics, bringing pipeline in, and pipeline brings closed deals. Now it's really about visibility into the forecast, right? What does this look like? What do these opportunities look like and what's happening with them? And then it's about, you know, there are a million different ways to identify and label every stage and step of a sales process. But really, you want to be looking at that forecast and holding the reps accountable, not hopefully, but accountable for what opportunities are real and what can close and when will it close?
Kathy (host):
Yep. And that has always been a challenge for finance because we heavily rely on this data to figure out how our revenue is going to be in the next, you know, months, in the next year, or whatever long it's going to be. And if that data is not correct or if the salespeople are padding it, it becomes a problem because now our financials are not going to be accurate. And that can pose all sorts of issues, especially when it comes to cash flow because we're assuming that we're going to get that money; there's going to be cash coming in. And if that's completely wrong, now we have to scramble to figure out how are we going to fill that gap, either with a loan, with a line of credit, whatever we're going to be doing. So for me on the finance side, it has always been, it feels that, you know, when the salespeople are not truthful about their sales pipeline, it just throws everything into a wrench, and it's just like, please don't do that, just tell us.
Dan (guest):
Yeah, well, it's sometimes they're optimistic and hopeful. The sales manager, the VP needs to make sure they understand every stage of a deal and where it is and what stage it's at and why. And then be monitoring the details of those opportunities they believe we're going to close. And if they're not going to close, it's not necessarily that the sales rep is deceitful; it's that they're hopeful. They're almost not truthful to themselves. So they are focused on building this pipeline because it feels good. But we're trying to figure out what's going to close. What deals are realistic? When are they going to close? And why do you think they're going to close? You don't need the fluff, to your point, you just don't need the fluff. But remember, if there's a lot of fluff, that's a sales management issue. They should be on a weekly, you know, you need to have, I mean, there's so many things to unravel here. But you basically need to have a process, you need to understand how to forecast, and there need to be rules around it and stages. And then you should be able to go back to each one of those stages and hold your sales reps accountable to make sure that they're truthful with themselves, and that the revenue they're projecting is accurate and correct.
Kathy (host):
One of the things that I like in terms of the sales pipeline in the CRM is if there are confidence levels. Because it could be that we have, you know, a couple of million in the pipeline, but I don't know how likely that is to close. So the confidence level, even in low, high, or medium, or maybe even in percentages, helps the finance organization to figure out, okay, anything that is below 75%, we are not going to take that into our account for the forecast. And I always get excited when I see those, especially in small businesses. If they are truthful and if the salesperson really has what they're putting in the confidence level, it truly is the confidence level that it ends up at, it can turn the business around because now you have a really good way to forecast your revenue, to forecast your cash, and it makes everything better. So the confidence levels, I always get excited when I see those.
Dan (guest):
Yeah, grading. Yeah, of course.
Kathy (host):
So, we talked a lot about how to make sure that you have the right salespeople, that you onboard them well, the 30-60-90 plan, and especially if you have a long sales cycle, how do you manage it? But for small businesses, especially for growing businesses that are just starting to hire salespeople and they are really lost, and they see issues and they don't know what to do, like what is the next step that they can do in the next month or so to get them closer to having these star salespeople on their team? Is there anything that they can be doing?
Dan (guest):
Again, the first thing is to look inward and understand the model. Once they understand the model, if they have a sales team in place, let's identify their top producers. Why are they top producers? Where did they come from? What are they doing differently? And it's amazing. I always ask this question of companies, who are your top producers? And nine times out of 10, the company will say, "Well, our top producer's background is not exactly what we're looking for. What we're looking for now is this, this, this, and this." They forget how they got to where they are and they forget what their top producer does and where they came from and why they're so successful. Instead, they say, "Can you get us a direct competitor?" And that doesn't guarantee success, not at all. You're better off looking at your top reps. And if they did come from a competitor, the question is, are you willing to compete for that talent? In other words, are you willing to spend the money? Do you have the compensation available to recruit that type of individual? And if you don't, then the question is, "If we can't afford these individuals, where is our competition getting their talent from?" And then we'll look at your competitors, and then we'll look at their sales reps, and we'll see where they're coming from. And we'll recruit those individuals. So the first step is to make sure you understand your sales model, identify who your top producers are, and then find those skills in your next hires. To do that now requires some kind of recruitment strategy. So you either need an internal recruiting team or a firm like ours, but someone that can see the ideal candidate and go search for them, introduce them to the opportunity, see if there's interest, and then build a pipeline of qualified candidates that could potentially do the job. And now start interviewing them to find the right fit.
Kathy (host):
That's a really good roadmap. Thank you for sharing that with us. Dan, where can people find you?
Dan (guest):
Well, our website is Treeline Inc, which is inc.com. We have a bunch of free guides, compensation calculators, I mean, all kinds of really cool resources for companies that are looking to hire. You can click the Contact Us page or you can just contact me directly or you can contact me on LinkedIn at Dan Fantasia. You can email me at Fantasia at treelineinc.com. I'm always happy. You don't have to use our services, but if you need help and you're trying to brainstorm and figure this out, just email me. I'm happy to jump on a call and look at your current environment and make some recommendations or suggestions.
Kathy (host):
That's very generous, Dan. I will also put all of the contact information, LinkedIn, the website, everything in the show notes. So if you did not catch that, you can look at the show notes. Thanks so much, Dan.
Dan (guest):
Thank you, Kathy.