Kathy (host):
Well, hello there and welcome back to another installment of "Help My Business is Growing," a podcast where we explore how to grow and build a business that is healthy and sustainable. I'm your host, Kathy Bettina.
Kathy (host):
Also, all large corporations worldwide have a chief operating officer or COO that leads and manages their complex operations. A COO supports the CEO to drive growth and meet the business objectives. But when you go into the small business world, the CEO is also the COO, meaning that they oversee all the company's day-to-day operations, including managing the people and virtual teams.
Kathy (host):
And while this might work during the startup stage or when the business is small, it might become overwhelming when your business starts to really grow. And it's not just overwhelming, it also causes business inefficiencies, which can result in losses and other financial issues. As a fractional CFO, I see this all the time, and operations are crucial for your financial health.
Kathy (host):
So, this is where hiring a fractional COO can come in handy. They help you navigate all the complexity and expansions of the operations, especially when managing remote and virtual teams. But you might be asking yourself, what is a fractional COO? What exactly what do they do? And how do they help make your business better? And how do they take your business to the next level?
Kathy (host):
If you are asking these questions, you're in luck because this episode is entirely dedicated to answering them. And my guest today is Valerie Hayes. She is a fractional COO, and EOS integrator who is on a mission to help overburdened entrepreneurs, small business owners, and CEOs establish their businesses as industry leaders without working 24/7 and 365 days a year.
Kathy (host):
As a fractional COO, Valerie helps untangle everything that's not working smoothly, sorts it out, and puts it all back together. That means no more late nights stuck at your desk trying to figure it all out. Her background as a business owner, a human resources professional in Fortune 500 companies, and a coach and mentor for high achievers enables her to bring a multifaceted, collaborative approach to every aspect of business. She's passionate about sharing her actionable insights with audiences around the world.
Kathy (host):
Valerie is convinced that fewer businesses would fail if people knew more about how to run their business well and how easy it can be. Her direct, down-to-earth approach takes the mystery out of running a business. Join us.
Kathy (host):
Welcome to the podcast. Valerie.
Valerie (guest):
Thank you, Kathy. I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for the invitation.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, I'm super excited that you're here because we're going to be talking about one of my favorite topics, which is the fractional world. We're also going to talk about how fractional COOs, which are fractional Chief Operating Officers, have worked with small businesses. And then we're going to dive into the particularly relevant topic of remote teams and how to actually manage them. You know, we're in the same world of this fractional help. You're the COO, I'm the CFO, you deal with operations, I deal with money. And what I'm seeing in this fractional term, although it's not new, it's still relatively unknown to business owners. And I like that as fractional people, we're like this treasure trove of business knowledge and help, but only a few business owners have a map on how to actually get to us. So my first question to you is, how do you explain what you do in your fractional COO world? And how do people actually find you?
Valerie (guest):
Yeah, those are interesting questions. First of all, for us within the fractional world, the fractional phrase, fractional word is very common. We use it all the time, we understand what it means. Most people here fractional small business owners, entrepreneurs, even probably family members and friends, they get hung up on that word fractional, and they're like, what does that mean, fractional? And really, of course, it's just a fancy marketing term for part-time, right? Sure. We're a part-time CFO, and part-time COO.
Valerie (guest):
So the way I try to describe it to people is I do the same thing as a full-time COO. But I just do it for a company who does not necessarily need a full-time CFO yet because a full-time COO or CFO or CMO is going to come with a full-time big-level executive salary, plus all the benefits and perks, and that's just too much for growing companies. But companies get to a size where they need the expertise and background of someone who's been there before and done that, right? So it's what I try to explain to people. It's kind of like buying speed. If you're a small business owner, you can try to learn how to do it yourself. So DIY, you can hire a consultant to do it for you, you are done for you. But then the knowledge and experience do not necessarily translate to you and your team.
Valerie (guest):
Or you can hire a fractional executive to do it with you. So they're coaching you, they're helping develop your skills and abilities that you'll be able to use as the business grows. And you're also able to fractional individual can mentor team members like you might be mentoring an accountant or a CPA, or maybe even mentoring a bookkeeper. And I do a lot of mentoring and bringing along supervisors and managers in different functional areas so that they can be managing at a higher level. So that's the primary difference between a fractional executive and maybe a high-level business consultant or a coach - it's really gaining that experience and expertise for yourself.
Valerie (guest):
And then once the company has grown to a size that they're ready for a full-time COO, ideally, I would have developed someone from within the organization that is now ready to take on that role. But if not, then I help them find someone to come in and work full-time. And then I move on to the next business.
Valerie (guest):
And it's interesting because I do have a lot of interest in LinkedIn. So a lot of the people contact me or contacting me because they've seen my videos on LinkedIn, where I'm trying to answer questions that people might be dealing with on an everyday basis. And then a lot of my businesses from personal referral because typically, the conversation is two business people that know each other, they're networking friends, or personal friends or something. And the one business owner is talking about their level of frustration with their business and what's not working for them and how they're just stuck and can't get it solved. And then the other person, who is a former client of mine or a current client of mine, will go, "Oh, well, you need a fractional COO," then they go, "Oh, what is that, right?" And then they explain what a fractional COO or CFO or any fractional expert is and how they can really take the burden of the area that they're not strong in and take it over and make it work.
Valerie (guest):
And usually, what my clients say is that by working with me as a fractional COO, that has really changed their whole workday, the way they approach work, the things they do, and that now they're doing the things they enjoy doing, the things they're really good at, and I take care of all the rest.
Kathy (host):
That's an excellent explanation, Valerie. And I especially like the idea of mentoring because I see it even on my side. I come in and fill in this need for a fractional executive in the finance space. But my role there is not to, once I leave, you know, all the knowledge goes with me. I am there to develop the business. Once I leave, if something happens to me (God forbid), the business is not left high and dry. They actually have the systems, the processes, the documentation on the finances. I think that is one of the main differences between us as fractional people and actually a consultant because the consultant comes in, fixes the stuff, and then the knowledge goes away. But with a fractional person, you are developing the people, and you're actually hiring the people that need to be there to fill that need as well.
Valerie (guest):
And I think that's one of the reasons why we are seeing more and more business owners interested in the fractional relationship with a C-suite executive because that's what they're seeing. They themselves can get coaching and development in a particular area, as well as their team members. Because in a growing organization, it's much easier to promote from within and going outside the company. It's faster, it's easier, you've got a known employee.
Valerie (guest):
Interestingly enough, I think that CFOs are very, very necessary for the vast majority of small businesses because typically they have a bookkeeper, and maybe they have an accountant or someone who does, you know, quarterly taxes for them or year-end taxes. But they're not fully leveraging their cash or other aspects of their financial dealings in their business. And so it's they're just reacting, you know, do I have money in the bank account to make payroll at the end of this month? Do I have an extra $5,000 to attend this workshop that I want to go to?
Valerie (guest):
Whereas with a CFO, I think that they can develop maybe, you know, at least a quarterly and ideally an annual plan that then they're reviewing and revisiting? Because I think too many people tend to look at finances as a report card. How much am I selling? What's my profit margin? How much is my take-home pay from after I pay all the bills in the business? But really, the financial data is helpful feedback on how your business is doing right now, where you might have some holes that you sort of want to patch up, and where you can take your business to in the future.
Valerie (guest):
And I think that it's particularly important right now to be considering a fractional CFO because as we move into 2023, we're still going to be experiencing an economic downturn, whether you actually use the R-word recession or not, it is an economic downturn. And it's more important than ever to make sure that you're managing your business finances wisely and proactively so that you'll be able to keep your head above water and hopefully even move forward during the next year.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, and you bring up a good point too. I always say that every single thing you do in your business is eventually going to end up in your finances. So for me, when I go into a business, we can take a look at what has happened in the past, but once you already have your P&L and balance sheet, you really want to be looking at it on a constant basis. And usually, when I work with someone, I can see issues in the P&L, not just because the numbers are off, but because the business itself is somehow off. So usually, when I work with someone like you, the operations person, or a fractional salesperson, or a fractional marketing person, we need to fix those things so that we can see those fixes reflected in the finances. So I think it's important to look at the business holistically, rather than just a number on a spreadsheet, which a lot of businesses think of as just a tax compliance thing. That kind of rush is really, really bad because then you're really being reactive instead of proactive.
Valerie (guest):
I was just gonna say, there's a lot of helpful data in financial information that will point you to the aspects of the business that you need to work on first, and they have the most opportunity to impact you positively. And so, I think if we could get people to shift their mindset as your finances are a report card, as opposed to your finances are clues to how to grow your business, I think that would be really helpful.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, it's like puzzle pieces. You're putting them together just to see the bigger picture. Exactly. So, Valerie, when people come to you, what are some of the biggest issues that they say, "I really need a fractional CFO?" You know, I like to joke that no one wakes up in the middle of the night and says, "My God, I need a fractional CFO!" Usually, it's because there are some problems there, and people are trying to figure out how to fix those issues and who to contact. So, what are some of the issues that people see that they go and contact you for?
Valerie (guest):
Well, the typical request that comes in is that they've been struggling to solve a problem or implementing a new idea. And they've talked to someone, somewhere along the line, a business consultant who's told them that the solution is to implement processes and procedures or to streamline current processes and procedures.
Valerie (guest):
So typically, someone contacts me saying they want to implement processes and procedures, and I just smile and nod politely because nine times out of ten, they don't really need processes and procedures. What they need is a realignment of their team and the duties and responsibilities and accountability. Oftentimes, they have the wrong people in the wrong jobs, maybe they're just wrong for the business and need to move on to someplace where they can really flourish and succeed.
Valerie (guest):
And a lot of times, the job descriptions need to be changed. It's not uncommon for me to come in and move people around into different jobs and change reporting relationships. Because what happens is when you hire someone, you're hiring them based on their skills and abilities at that time. Oftentimes, those have been changed, as well as their interest level and what they're motivated to do.
Valerie (guest):
So what's most interesting is that for the first two to three weeks, they're focused on working together to create processes and procedures. And usually, after about the four-week mark, they realize, after I'm presenting helpful information and going over things, that they really have a people issue. And here's how you can know that: if you have the right people in the right jobs, you can run a company without processes and procedures, and they do them naturally. They're just doing them on their own, but they're not documented. They're not written down. They have communicated amongst each other on how they're going to make the workflow happen.
Valerie (guest):
So you can run a business without processes and procedures. I don't recommend it, but you can. But you can't run a business only on processes and procedures and no people, even if you have perfectly articulated, well-defined, streamlined, absolutely 100% dead-on processes and procedures. If you have the wrong people, it's never going to work.
Valerie (guest):
So processes and procedures always start with making sure you've got the right people in the right spots. Oftentimes, the first thing I do is make sure we get people in the right spots, and then we move on to documenting our agreed-upon processes and in procedures.
Kathy (host):
This is really interesting. And as you said, that, I thought to myself, "Like, this is actually true because you can really grow a business to a couple of million dollars, even probably 10 million, without having documented processes and procedures. It's going to feel chaotic, but you are going to be moving along, even though you don't have that." So that's definitely true if you have the right people. But what do you think? That having the right people in place minimizes the impact of processes and procedures? Is it because they naturally are doing things that drive the business forward? I mean, why is that?
Valerie (guest):
It's because they are fully qualified and motivated to do the job they're in, and so they naturally solve problems and make things work smoothly with other employees in the company because that's a natural predisposition. So, this speaks to that very trendy thing now that all the business gurus are talking about, where you hire people for attitude and personality traits as opposed to skill. I happen to disagree with that. Hire for personality traits first, skill second. I don't think that works for growing businesses. But I do believe that the attitude of being self-motivated, being a problem solver, having critical thinking skills, being someone who has a natural bent to always be thinking, "How can I improve this? How can I make this smoother? What do I need to do in my job? Do I need to give more information to this person over here to help them be more efficient?" Some people have a natural bent to always be trying to do better at whatever it is they're doing. And that's the kind of person that if you have in place in your job, and it doesn't have to be everyone, even if you just have three or four key people that are sort of naturally doing that, and then encouraging it, inspires others to do it. That's when you can get by without the giant SOP notebook.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, I can definitely see that. And you know, when you come into the business, how do you generally work with the business? Because there are so many things that need fixing. It's like, how do you untangle this? You have this giant ball of yarn that you have to untangle now. What do you even start?
Valerie (guest):
Well, I typically first start by meeting with, obviously, the CEO and other senior-level staff, and then I start meeting with other people in the organization. If it's a smaller organization, like 20 people or less, I try to meet with everyone for at least half an hour to get a sense of what they do, what their frustrations might be, what they think is going well, and what they would change or do differently.
Valerie (guest):
Usually, within two to three weeks, I know exactly what the problems are and what the causes of the problem are. A lot of people face challenges with consultants because they often don't have the opportunity to really get to know the business at a very minute level. So they often come in and think they're solving the problem as articulated by the business owner. But sometimes, what the business owner thinks is a problem is actually a symptom of the problem. So if you fix that symptom, the underlying problem still exists.
Valerie (guest):
So usually, after two to three weeks, I have a pretty good sense of what or who the problem is. Sometimes you might have someone who's just slowing things down in the workflow or someone who is not on board with the overall mission and goals. At that point, I then have a good idea of what the underlying issues and problems really are. Then I prioritize the problems based on how quickly we can implement something and how quickly we can implement something that has an impact.
Valerie (guest):
Because at first, when I'm coming in and working with a team, they are skeptical and resist change. Everyone resists change, and this doesn't make them bad people. What I like to do is work on a problem that's going to have an obvious impact on all of the employees as quickly as possible. This way, they see that change can be good. It's not just necessarily change that benefits the CEO and the owners and puts more money in their pockets. It's also changed that makes their job better, provides career opportunities, or makes working with clients easier.
Valerie (guest):
I try to work on those hot issues for the CEO or the owner of the company, knocking off a real hot issue within the first two months. Then, in the first four to six weeks, let's do something that benefits the employees. Running a growing business feels like herding cats sometimes. You've got so many things going in so many different directions, and it's hard to corral it all in and get it pointed in the right direction.
Valerie (guest):
If you can demonstrate that what you're trying to do is an actual benefit to the employees, reduces their stress levels, or perhaps reduces overtime hours, then we can get buy-in early on in the process. Otherwise, it's typical for employees to resist change in the first three to six months because they don't understand the overall vision or where we are headed. So, I really like to focus on something that impacts the business and also helps the employees.
Kathy (host):
Have you ever had a situation when people were so reluctant for change, and there was, I would say, an exodus of employees because they did not agree with the new way things were being done?
Valerie (guest):
Fortunately, I would not say I've had a large exodus. Working with a client now, we did lose three team members during the first year. But in all truth, we're not saddened by their departure. One of them was not actually producing work. They were all virtual team members, and this particular team member was a very nice person. However, the virtual environment was just not a fit for her. She craved more direct personal interaction and felt lonely and isolated. As a result, there were weeks where she wouldn't do any work without informing anyone. This affected the client's service, and the business owner remained unaware.
Valerie (guest):
In another instance with the same client, we had a virtual team member who was saying one thing to the client and something else to the business owner, causing a communication disconnect. We addressed this issue with her, but she ultimately decided to resign because she wanted to have her own business and didn't align with the business owner's vision. That's perfectly fine. If people aren't in agreement, it's better for them to find a situation that makes them happier and where the work environment, workload, and processes align better. I can't say that any of my clients have lost team members that we regretted losing.
Kathy (host):
And I've seen that too with the businesses that I work with. When we start implementing changes, there are people that are reluctant about it, and it's normal, it's absolutely normal. But they slowly warm up to it, and it's fine. But then there are others who are completely, they do not agree with what we're doing. It's really not a fit for them anymore. And usually, it's those that have been lacking in the past. And now it shines a spotlight on the performance and how things are going. And they get scared. And that's why they leave. And at the end of the day, the business is actually better off with those, because if people are not performing in the business, they might be better in some other business or they might be better having their own business. It's better for the business owners to just let the stragglers fall off.
Valerie (guest):
And sometimes it's hard for business owners because they've maybe not been in a situation, perhaps like in a corporate environment or a larger business, where they've had to fire several people. Some of these business owners have never fired anyone, or they've just tried to sort of ignore the problem until the person resigns on their own. And so it's often very hard for them to, you know, because in a small business, it almost feels like a family to write your coworkers, especially if they've been with you for a long time. And so you feel like you're being the bad guy for saying, you know, I think it's time for you to go. But the reality is, I've worked for three Fortune 500 companies in a Human Resources position, and I can absolutely tell you that there has never been an employee that I've fired that wasn't already miserable in their job. They know they're not performing. They know they're not a fit for the organization. They know they're not happy. It's just a disconnect. But they're hanging on for a variety of reasons, right? And usually, what happens is, in the employment for the employee, the manager is relieved and wondering why they hadn't done it sooner, right? And typically, the employee, although not necessarily happy for the first several days, perhaps a week, sort of feels like it's a weight off their shoulders because they're not in a situation that they know really isn't working for them. It's actually very draining for employees to be in a position that's not working.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, and we both are servicing a similar company size. Yours is between 750 to 10 million, correct, right?
Valerie (guest):
Yes.
Kathy (host):
Mine is between 1 million to 10 million. And what I'm noticing there is that people that were in the right seat at a million or 2 million, things change when the company goes to seven, eight, 10 million because the needs of the companies change. You need to have more layers, you need to have more structure. So people that are really good for that, I call it almost like the startup phase at the beginning when things are a little bit more chaotic. Everyone needs to do everything. It's the janitor, it's the salesperson, it's the marketing person. There's this dynamic feel to a company that's different when it's starting out, when it's at the lower end of 10 million versus when it's on the higher end of 10 million. So it's also that you might not have the right fit anymore, and you have outgrown the people that have been in the company for a long time. And that's perfectly fine.
Valerie (guest):
People grow at different rates, and organizations grow at different rates. And sometimes a business will shift its focus. Maybe they were primarily focused on one service that was really exciting, and the employees enjoyed doing that. And over time, they've decided, for strategic reasons, to focus on another service. But some employees just don't enjoy that new direction. So it's important to realize that it's okay for an employee to outgrow the business, and it's okay for the business to outgrow an employee. You just have to deal with it and try to make it a win-win as much as possible, and then move forward. The longer you wait, the more painful it becomes.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, that's true. And you made a really good segue into virtual teams. And I want to start talking about that because I think this is really important. And a lot of people struggle with us, especially now when there's a lot more virtual teams just because of COVID and everything else. And managing a team when you're not naturally, don't have that type of skill, because it is a skill that you have to develop. And especially in the small business space, you've started the business because you love it. And then the business grew. And now you have teams that you have to manage. So managing a team, it's already hard. And now managing a virtual team adds a slight extra layer of complexity that people might not be prepared for. So can you talk a little bit about how managing a virtual team is different from managing an onsite team? How does that look like?
Valerie (guest):
Well, I think the recruiting process is even more important when you're hiring a virtual team, whether that's part-time, if you're always a week or full-time virtual team member because you are looking for the skill set that you need, you know, accounting, manufacturing, whatever that particular skill set is.
Valerie (guest):
But you're also looking for a certain mindset, certain approach to work. These are people who are self-motivated when they get up in the morning. They're not going to spend the first two hours having a cup of coffee and watching YouTube videos, not that we all haven't finished on YouTube videos. But you know, this is someone who naturally gets up and they're excited about whatever is on their work plan for today. They're excited about what they're doing. They're very self-motivated. They're self-starters. Other words are go-getters.
Valerie (guest):
And when you're interviewing, you want to ask them questions about "Tell me about a time where you accomplished a project without a lot of help from your supervisor or your manager, right?" Tell me how when you get a project or task, you plan it out. You need people who create their own work plans because you're not in that physical proximity that allows supervisors or managers to do that for them, right. So they need to be people who are naturally motivated to achieve goals that they set for themselves, let alone the business goals. And they need to be able to create their work plans.
Valerie (guest):
You also need to be able to work with hire people that are really, really good at communicating, not just via email. There's no way you're going to manage a virtual team of any size via email if you have a couple of employees, okay. But once you get to like four or five employees, you're going to need something like Slack or Discord so that there can be ongoing conversations throughout the day. You need to hire people who can literally have a conversation on Slack or Discord or another messaging platform that is almost as good as if they were sitting next to each other talking about something. And so they need to be able to interrupt what they're doing and do a quick message, right, just like if someone walked up to your desk and started talking to you.
Valerie (guest):
You need to be able to describe things in more detail. So you're looking for an employee team member who can describe things maybe they're giving work to, I don't know, a customer service person, and they need to give more background about the customer and what the actual outcome they require is. And then you also need the other person to be able to ask questions. So communication skills, written communication skills are almost more important in a virtual setting than in an in-person setting. Because in person, there's the nuance of context and vocal tone, and all those kinds of things, which are absence in a virtual team.
Valerie (guest):
And I also think it's really, really important to understand why you're hiring virtual team members. The vast majority of people who hired virtual team members are doing so for cost savings purposes. Maybe they don't have a full-time need just yet. Or maybe they want to have offshore team members outside the United States or Canada because it's at a cost savings. And I think it's important that if you're doing that you understand that there are trade-offs there, right, that there's going to be different educational expertise because if someone has graduated from college in a developed country, that's a very different educational level than someone who's graduated college from the United States, Canada, Europe, Japan, so on and so forth, right.
Valerie (guest):
So oftentimes, clients that I've worked with who have hired offshore team members are just flabbergasted because they don't think that they have developed even the basic critical thinking or problem-solving skills that they would expect of a similar level employee within the United States. And one of the most frequent complaints is that it takes them too long to do things your offshore team. Well, that's because of the cultural differences, the different level of education that they actually experienced, and the difference of the critical thinking skills. So if you're working with offshore team members in developing countries, the Philippines very, very popular right? To get virtual team members, you need to be more careful in how you communicate the project and what you expect the outcome to be. And when you want it, and here's the critical piece, you have to teach them that it's okay to ask questions because a lot of them in the developing countries feel like if I tell you to do a, that you should just do a as quickly as possible and don't ask any questions because then you look stupid, right?
Valerie (guest):
Yeah. And so when I'm working with virtual team members in developing countries, I try to make it very, very clear that asking questions is a good thing because we interpret it as they're trying to achieve the highest level of excellence on that task, and then wanting to make sure they understand the task correctly. So managing a virtual team is in many ways more subtly complex. You don't think it's going to be more complex, but it is, but it can also be very, very rewarding. And virtual team members in developing countries or even US, Canada, and so on, do you really like working virtually?
Valerie (guest):
And so if you can make it work, you're going to have a team member for life because they love working from home in their jammies. They love picking up their kids from school or taking the dog to the vet. So there's really a lot of benefits to utilizing virtual team members.
Kathy (host):
Yeah, and I definitely agree with the whole cultural aspect too. And I've had an experience even in my corporate world, working with offshore teams, and it was always interesting to see the differences. Because when you have communication with, let's say, people in India or the Philippines, what I noticed is that when an authority figure, let's say their manager, tells them to do something, in the US and the Western world, you would, even though your manager tells you something, you would still think about it. There would still be critical thinking, like, does this make sense? Does this fit into what we're doing? What type of questions do I have? But usually, it's not done that way. They just do it exactly as they're told. And I have an offshore virtual team myself, and I always tell them, like, go and ask questions. Do you have questions? Does this fit into what we're doing? Just because I tell you something doesn't mean it needs to be 100% done. I want you to challenge me because that's how the team develops. That's how the company develops. And you don't want to be the person that's constantly driving the team forward. You want to step outside and let the team actually drive the engine by itself too. So that's why it's important to be really aware of those cultural differences and if you are working with those teams, develop them in a way that overrides what they've been taught in the past or how they might have been working in the past.
Valerie (guest):
Exactly. I totally agree.
Kathy (host):
So let's say that you have a virtual team that's half somewhere offshored, and half in the US. How do you set the expectations that they're actually doing things that you want them to be doing? I know, having project management software probably helps. That's what I use – we use ClickUp. I cannot live without ClickUp, and I've sung praises to ClickUp on this podcast before. But how do you effectively manage the work and the workload for the virtual team?
Valerie (guest):
Well, it's all about communication. And I totally agree that a project management tool is very beneficial. I've used Asana, I've used Monday.com, I've used Notion, which is also a great option. And again, you want to, as the business leader or business owner, or maybe a manager, you want to set the example by communicating frequently and very specifically in your project management software. So the other people can see what your expectations are. They should be detailed when you're assigning a task. It should include a date, and you should be able to prioritize it compared to the other tasks you've already assigned for this week.
Valerie (guest):
For example, when I'm assigning tasks in Monday, I think there are several categories like urgent, high, medium, low, or optional. So you categorize the tasks. You try to give them enough information upfront. You let them know how you want them to start the project. And then you absolutely have to be meeting with your entire team. Now, whether your entire team means all the managers or all the supervisors, or if you're a small team, the entire team, you need to be meeting with people at least once a week, ideally at the beginning of the week, so that you can set their priorities and objectives for that week and what we're really focused on.
Valerie (guest):
It's very, very important to remember to give them dates because they're not mind readers. They're not going to know when you want something. And you also need to proactively let them know how to solve a time crunch problem. And again, I use Monday.com for that by indicating the urgency or priority level of the project.
Valerie (guest):
You sort of have to think about it as working with a 10-year-old, not that these are 10-year-olds, but you want to give as much information as you think a 10-year-old would need because that will give them the information to easily and quickly pursue the task. And then it's important to hold people accountable. There's no doubt there are virtual team members who won't do something and hope that you forgot, or that they'll do something and then take off for the day and not be responding to your Slack messages or questions.
Valerie (guest):
And when people do that, you just need to have a face-to-face call with them, not an email, not a message on your messaging platform. You need to have a face-to-face call with them and say, "I was concerned this didn't get done. I didn't hear back from you as to why it didn't get done or what the questions were. And I want to discuss how that happened and why that happened that way." Because if you do that, they will know that they're not going to be able to slide.
Valerie (guest):
Now, that doesn't mean that you call them on the carpet for every single thing that happens. It doesn't happen exactly as you envisioned it. You have to pick your battles. But it's important that you set the expectations that if you assigned something, you don't expect them to not do it and then not tell you they didn't do it because that's just going to be a downhill slide from there.
Kathy (host):
Yeah. And here's a challenge, even in my business as well, is a lot of the work might not be task-specific. You might be doing research, you're doing some type of creative stuff. You might be wondering, how do you gauge the effectiveness? And how do you keep track of that creative type of work? Let's say that you have a marketing person that's offshore. How do you keep track of that? Because it's not a specific task that they have to do. But they still have to be doing all the planning, all the thinking, all the conceptualizing. How do you keep track of that?
Valerie (guest):
Well, I think you keep track of things on an outcome basis, right? Because the thought processes along the way could take various paths, depending on what their process is and what they're needing to work on. But you just have to focus on the outcome. And you're sort of managing on that concept of, "I don't care how you get to point A, B, and C, but I want you to get to points A, B, and C by such and such day. And this is the level of quality of work it needs to be, it needs to include this, this, this, and that." Right? And then, because they have a set deadline and they know what the objective outcome is supposed to be and what the objective evaluation of the outcome will be, then we leave them to manage it on their own devices in their own time. Hopefully, they get there.
Valerie (guest):
And I like to give people two shots. And on the third time, I say, "Okay, this is our third time. If this happens again, it's probably just not a fit for us, and we need to move on." It's very tempting to just avoid it and sweep it under the carpet and not deal with it in hopes that it will get better. Those kinds of problems never get better. And so, as the least painful choice, is to nip it in the bud. If it's not going to work, make the decision that it's not going to work, let go of them so they can find something that appeals to them and enables them to be successful in their own career, and then bring in someone who's a better fit for you and your needs.
Kathy (host):
Or it might be the also that they might not be a good fit for that particular role. But they might do better in the other role in the company?
Valerie (guest):
Yes, I have absolutely done that. It's funny how people think they know what they're good at, and they come in and they say, "I want to do this, this, and such." I was working with a young man, very smart, very talented, but he was absolutely and completely in the wrong job, although he thought he was great at it. And, you know, so that's awkward. And we transitioned him into another position, which fortunately, included more money. Otherwise, I'm not sure he would have jumped at it because he really thought he wanted to do this other thing over here. And now that he's in that job, he's like, "Oh, this is a great fit for me. This is where I live and this is where I belong," and he's doing very, very well. He was absolutely a failure in the first job. It was just a nightmare. Whenever possible, I like to move people around to help them find a spot where they can be successful and really contribute. I really prefer that letting people go is sort of a last resort.
Kathy (host):
You know, that's an interesting example because you have to see something in that person to trigger that in you to say, "Well, maybe this is not a good fit for them here, but I need to move them there." So what was it? What do you think business owners should ask themselves of whether they need to let that person go or they just need to move them somewhere else? What do they need to see in that employee to trigger that maybe that is not a good place for them here, but then moved to be moved over here versus being let go?
Valerie (guest):
Right. So what you're looking for is a pattern of behaviors. So let's take, for example, this young man who is really talented but was in a job that was completely different from his natural skill set. It took planning, follow-through, and asking detailed questions, and he's more of a creative thinker, kind of guy—very bluesy, very charming, right? And so I was noticing aspects of the job that he was not good at all and was sort of failing on, but I was also noticing small slivers of hope in the things that he did well, naturally without any advice. So I contemplated, "What is he good at? What kind of job is that? What does that job look like?" And it was actually a sales position, which is what he's in now—very smooth.
Kathy (host):
I had a feeling you were gonna say that.
Valerie (guest):
As a schmoozing salesperson, he's just knocking it out of the ballpark, you know, just amazing everyone. And it's funny because we like to think we're all good at everything. Okay, no. Sometimes it takes a little guidance, a little gentle pushing. So what I did was I noticed the three things in his first job that he was good at, and I asked him to do more of those things. Then I expanded that and said, "Oh, we need a little help on those kinds of things in this department over here. Can you give that a whirl?" It was just a test to see if he would be able to transfer the things he was good at into another job. And it became obvious that he could. He feels like this is his space, where he was always meant to be.
Valerie (guest):
So what you're really trying to do is observe behaviors. If they're bad at everything, it's probably just a disconnect in either skill set, motivation, or personality style. If they're bad at everything, you probably need to let them go. But if there is something that they're good at or a cluster of things, you try to think, "What are those skill sets? And what job does that relate to?"
Kathy (host):
Yeah, that's great advice, Valerie. So, I always ask this one question every single guest that comes on this podcast, and that is: If someone is struggling, let's say with their virtual team, what is the one thing that they can do in the next week or so to get closer to having a better understanding of the virtual team and managing them better?
Valerie (guest):
I think the one thing that they could do is ask how they're contributing to the situation. Because virtual team miscommunication or lack of direction or functionality, it's not just one person, right? I worked with a client who thought he was really good at giving work direction. And he was terrible, absolutely terrible. He would say, "This is the general thing I want you to do. I want you to do A, B, and C," he would not tell them timeframe, he would not give them an opportunity to ask questions and say, "Yeah, but this thing conflicts with that thing." And he just really felt that giving work direction is you just tell someone something to do. He didn't realize that, especially with virtual teams, it's a dialogue, right? It's more of a conversation, not just an assigning of tasks. So I think if you're managing, supervising, or leading a virtual team, and you're having issues with an individual team member, or maybe even a broader scope, you need to ask yourself, "What are the symptoms of the problem? And how am I helping to create those symptoms, right?" And then, because it's you, you can fix yourself faster than you can fix someone else, right? Then right away, you try to change things differently and try to find an engagement that will create the outcome that you want. And then, if that's not working, then you have to say to yourself, "Okay, I've given them every opportunity to get this down and do this. Now, I think it's not me now. I need to bring them in and talk to them about how they're communicating and how they're contributing to the situation." You have to do your piece first before you can really determine what the problem is.
Kathy (host):
More fixing yourself first before you can fix other people.
Valerie (guest):
Yeah, that will get out of your own way. Right?
Kathy (host):
Yeah. Valerie, where can people find you?
Valerie (guest):
Well, I'm online. I have a website, ValerieHayes.com. V-A-L-E-R-I-E-H-A-Y-E-S. I'm also very active on LinkedIn, with videos answering questions. Usually, the videos are based on things that I've been working with for clients recently, so they're very applicable. And you can email me from my website, there's a contact form, or message me on LinkedIn. We respond to everyone. It's not a VA. And you can simply ask a question or ask to schedule an appointment. We're very casual.
Kathy (host):
Thanks so much for being on the show, Valerie. Super appreciate it.
Valerie (guest):
Thanks, Kathy was great. I appreciate being here.
Kathy (host):
Thanks so much for joining us today, and I hope that this episode has given you new insights on the value of hiring a fractional COO and the strategies for managing virtual teams effectively. Also, if you love this episode, you can find all the timestamps, show notes, blog posts, links, and more on our website, newcastlefinance.us/podcast. And before I go, I do have a little bit of a favor to ask. If you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts, if you could please go to the show and tap the number of stars that you think the show deserves, because this helps other people find it as well and, of course, benefit from it. Thanks so much. Until next time.
